Saturday, June 27, 2009

My Friend's Body ≠ Your Business





My friend, the poet/editor Kristy Bowen, runs an online calendar that lists poetry readings/events that take place in the Chicago area. This has upset a poet named C.J. Laity, who also runs an online calendar that lists poetry readings/events that take place in the Chicago area. To the best of my understanding, C.J.'s complaint is that he was running his poetry calendar first and that Kristy's calendar constitutes something of an intellectual property theft situation. Here is Kristy's calendar. Here is C.J.'s calendar.

Now, until a couple of days ago, my level of interest in this fight could best be described as less than minimal. But then C.J. started bringing weight/appearance into the argument. The implication was that Kristy is in the wrong because she weighs more than C.J. thinks she ought and/or that Kristy weighs more than C.J. thinks she ought because she's in the wrong.

At first, I was reluctant to post about this. My reading of the situation is that this man just writes inflammatory things about other poets in order to get more site hits. And I hate giving speech like this the pleasure of my attention. But I feel that I have to speak (write) out. I'm not angry because he's being mean to my friend; I'm angry about the way he's being mean to my friend.

Fat-bashing (like gay-bashing, like racism) doesn't just hurt the individual who's being bashed. It hurts all members of that community. Fat-bashing is an especially insidious form of hate speech because it doesn't even "just" affect people who are perceived to be overweight. It affects all people in possession of a body because it serves as a threat to what awaits those who dare to commit the sin of not being perceived as thin. While a person can't become gay or become black; they can, if they're not "careful," become fat. The dynamics of this situation - an older male poet publicly denigrating the body of a younger female poet - serve as yet another reminder to all the young female poets out there that even in the (purportedly liberal and women-friendly) poetry community, even on the (purportedly flesh-less) Internet, their bodies are somebody else's (everybody else's?) business.


A few people that I've talked to about this have expressed that they would like to do something to express their displeasure. I'm not entirely sure what the best course of action is. It seems unlikely that sending this guy an e-mail explaining why his speech is offensive is going to lead to anything along the lines of a healthy dialogue about feminism and body image in the world of poetry blogs. But, if you want to send C.J. an e-mail, he can be reached at ChicagoPoetry@ChicagoPoetry.com. A few other suggestions for those of you who want to fight back:


1. Give Kristy your money. Buy Kristy's books. Buy some of the chapbooks Kristy publishes. She runs dancing girl press, a press dedicated to publishing female poets, out of her own pocket. Also, she manages an online shop that specializes in pretty paper products and vintage clothes.

2. Give Kristy your poetry. Kristy edits a journal called wicked alice. Send a few of your A-game poems her way.

3. Use Kristy's calendar. If you're a Chicago poet, use Kristy's online calendar instead of C.J.'s. Get your friends to do the same.

4. Make a donation to About-Face or The National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance. Or, at the very least, browse through their websites.

5. Evaluate your own body snarking practices. After a few post-reading beers, do you find yourself commenting about how so-and-so is looking a bit chubby lately? Cut that shit out. By making comments like those, you're causing the world I live in to become a crappier place.






See also:


Chicago Poetry (Jenny Boully)

Boycott CJ Laity and Chicagopoetry.com (Kate Durbin)

Just in case you thought sexism and discrimination in poetry were things of the past (Becca Klaver)



47 comments:

chicagopoetry said...

Oh, blah, blah, blah already. The bottom line is that Kristy Bowen is using the fact that she is a young overweight woman to steal from and to do really mean things to another person in her community (namesly me). She thinks that just because she is a young overweight woman she can steal from an older man and that older man will be afraid to criticize her for it for this very reason, that some other younger woman will accuse him of being everything including the kitchen sink. Kristy Bowen and her friends have no problem making fun of my alcoholism or insinuating that I have mental problems, but calling attention to the fact that she is overweight is out of line, huh? Just stop it, hypocrites!!

The bottom line is Kristy Bowen is stealing the domain name ChicagoPoetry and is tricking people with her anymous site in order to steal the audience I have worked for ten years to develop. There are infinite names that she can call her site that wouldn't infringe upon my domain name, yet she purposely uses my domain name and not only that, signs others who have stolen from me in the past up as members. What she is doing is intentional and is no accident. And it hurts, because I've supported Bowen for years before she apparently aligned herself with the rest of the creeps that are always badmouthing me. She gives her press a bad name by stealing from me. She gives the poets published by her press a bad name. And she's not immune to criticism just because she happens to be an overweight young woman. She should show others respect if she wants respect in return.

becca said...

Hey Daniela -- Thanks for having the courage, and taking the time, to write this thorough, heartfelt, and upstanding post!

FYI: I believe wicked alice is technically open to submissions by men.

I think it's particularly important to put this cruel act in the context of how some older male poets treat some younger women poets. Of course the issues can't center on the woman's poems, press, or website -- these must be superfluous! Of course the issue must be about her body! Because that's all, sadly, he can see. It points to a dangerous, pervasive mindset regarding female authors' physical appearance that you've noted here and on the Switchback blog before:

http://switchbackbooks.blogspot.com/2009/03/are-you-hot-enough-to-write.html

Thanks again.

cara said...

Excellent suggestion to support her press, her zine, her endeavors! Will do!

Bloody Ice Cream said...

Becca - You're right; wicked alice accepts subs from men. I'll make the change right away.

CJ - I'm not arguing that Kristy deserves to be immune from criticism. I'm arguing that she, like every other human being (including you) deserves to be immune from hate speech.

chicagopoetry said...

Fine, if we are all immune from hate speech, ask your friend Kristy to apologize to me for calling me "crazy" and saying all that other stuff about me at her blog last year, when me and my friends all got pushed out of the Small Press Month show and I happened to complain about it. If I recall correctly, she kept saying "You can't argue with crazy." Well, no, you can't "argue" or "communicae" or "talk" if you don't try; instead of trying, she went online and registered a copycat domain name. All this after I reviewed her book, featured her in various things and generally just gave her my support.

Bloody Ice Cream said...

CJ - "She started it" isn't even close to a good argument. Not with this kind of "rhetoric." Once again, the problem with fat-bashing is that it's hurtful not just to the intended target but to the entire community.

chicagopoetry said...

I agree about fat bashing. I also think bashing someone's mental health is inexcusable. I'll tell you what, I'll apologize to Kristy if she apologizes to me. Sound fair enough? Unless there is some double standard here, of course.

Bloody Ice Cream said...

CJ - See. Comment. Above.

amyking said...

Huh? How does anyone "own" chicago poetry? That's like saying someone owns atlanta poetry or new york poetry or new york fiction or chicago fiction or, moreover, the right to say nasty things without expecting to be held accountable. How did you get to be so proprietary anyway? Shouldn't we applaud any and everyone who attempts to disseminate and promote poetry in its various mediums? You know, get the word out? Whatever your answer, know that:

Bashing anyone's appearance is such a debased way of getting your point across, CJ, that I can't even find an actual, legitimate argument due to the glaring hate speech you're putting forth. You want sympathy? Try making a constructive argument for your case instead of mucking it all up with hate.

I may have listened openly to your points initially, but now I'm totally biased: I immediately don't like you for resorting to such hateful tactics and cannot truly be open to your position now. It's the same as being a racist or a homophobe. You really don't get it?

You perceive that someone was not nice to you in the past? You think being not nice back works? Only if you're twelve and haven't learned that throwing rocks just doesn't get your way.

Good luck with your hate campaign. You're not getting any sympathizers with this kind of attack.

Andrew Lundwall said...

c.j.,

grow up!

chicagopoetry said...

Not good enough Bloody Ice Cream. If you want to live in a delusional pretend world where your friend didn't do anything to deserve it, then do that. But don't expect me to subscribe to that fantasy world, because it DOES matter what Kristy Bowen did and continues to do to me. Why doesn't she use her own domain name, anyway? She's just using mine to be malicious and to try to piggyback off my ten years of hard work. Is that okay with you? Is it okay if I set up an anonmyous site called Bloody Ice Cream Calendar? You really wouldn't care, or would you say something nasty about me, like what a drunk you hear I was, or how I'm crazy, or just some big bully booga booga. Enough with the double standards. You guys even called me SEXIST! Why? because I mentioned Kristy Bowen's weight? Come on, I was hanging out with the Sister Serpents and lower links when most of you were in diapers.

Matt said...

Oh please...calling someone "crazy" is nowhere near the level of bile you've been spewing. Most of the time, in everyday use, "crazy" is an indictment of immature behavior, not a literal comment about mental health. And if your comments throughout this mess are any indication, you probably deserved to be called crazy. I'll call you that right now. C.J., you're crazy. You're not "mentally ill" (at least not clinically insane, as far as I know) but you are crazy in terms of your nasty anti-social behavior.

chicagopoetry said...

Whatever, guys. You talk as if I'm finished, when I'm only just beginning. Stop stealing my domain name, period. I don't care if you hate me, I don't care what you think about me, I have done a million times more than any of you for the Chicago Poetry Scene in the last twenty years and I simply do not need your approval and if you are going to act ignorantly, like it's okay if an overweight young woman sling her hate but it's not okay if a middle aged Irishman slings his hate, then I don't want your approval. I've done quite well so far without it, thank you. All I want is for Kristy Bowen to stop stealing from me and I've already tried the nicety nice discourse, and that got me nowhere. So . . . there we have it.

Ana Božičević said...

cj, if you actually care about your 'years of hard work,' stop this misguided campaign. whatever your grievances might be -- try harder to resolve them in a civilized manner. this is no way to be a poet, a poetry promoter, even just a person.

-sed said...

I'm not a lawyer, but as per domain names, one must include the .com, .org or whatever after the first part of the address. Registering xyz.com does not give that registree claim on, say, xyz.edu ...

Daniela, I admit, I was as put off by you about this whole thing, but it's hardly unexpected and its outcome and the flak anyone around it takes will hardly be unpredictable ...

Natty Chris said...

c.j. is a bully and only picking on a woman because he thinks he can get away with it. how do i know this? because if you google chicagopoetry.blogspot.com, you will see that the name chicagopoetry.blogspot.com was taken by a group of men, not by kristy bowen. presumably c.j. is intimidated by them because after posting one lame complaint, he has done nothing to wrest control of his supposed name from them. in fact, it appears they are not even using it any more. what gives, c.j.? why beat up a woman? mommy didn't love you?

chicagopoetry said...

Thanks Ana, but it's not up for negotiation. Kristy Bowen needs to do the ethical thing and simply change the name of her site so that it is not infringing upon my domain name. I'm not talking about legality, I'm talking about morality. True, I legally COULD register DancingGirlPress dot whatever, but if I did it, I'd be an a-hole, wouldn't I.

chicagopoetry said...

Natty Chris, you are a liar and a plagiarist. If you do a simple Who Is search on ChicagoPoetryCalendar.org you will see it was registered by Kristy Bowen. That's the domain name I that infringes upon mine; I couldn't care less about a stupid blogspot name. Now go recover from your hangover and let the real poets hash it out. You have been spreading lies about me ever since you popped into the scene.

Eileen said...

This kind of thing has been going on for a long time in the poetry world. Ezra Pound did it to Amy Lowell, calling Imagism Amy-gism because Lowell was too forceful a woman, and she threatened his territory. He literally ruined her reputation consigning her to the status of minor poet in perpetuity. Of course, we all now know what a fascist Pound was. He was also mentally ill. This behavior seems to be that of a desperate man, one who has little to assure him a place in poetry. It is also so middle school.

amyking said...

CJ,

The sad fact that continues to rise to the surface here and out you for the MISOGYNIST that you are is that you keep citing a woman's appearance in a matter that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SITUATION.

Screaming over and over that she did this and she did that and she is overweight simply outs you for the woman hating prick that you certainly are and continue to prove, tirelessly, over and over. Saying it isn't so, over and over, and then referring to this woman's body over and over is just blatant hypocrisy, and certainly doesn't make you a victim.

But keep screaming. Keep pimping yourself as the victim. No one will hear since your arguments continue to drown in your woman-hating rhetoric.

Here, let me do it for you, though you'll be at the reply in one second because you seem to think being dogmatic in your woman-hating is somehow effective: "Boo hoo, Chicago Poetry was mine! She stole it! Boo hoo! Boooooooo hoooooo! They did this, they did that, I am me, I made Chicago Poetry what it is today, ten years at it, boooooo hoooooo! It's all gone overnight! Booo hooooooooo! Sniffle."

You're still a WOMAN HATING ASS who deserves every little bit of fallout you get. As you'll see, the only ones who will support you will be other insecure woman-haters -- and they'll only take the opportunity to bash women's bodies as you have. Your "cause" is a thin farce that you've used to mock this woman's appearance, and you're gonna get karmic hell for it.

And now we're off to make Kristy and her friends' calendar rise to the top off all searches on the internet -- you've done yourself in, dude. Your "campaign" has backfired, and we're going to make sure your site really does lose it's "premier" and "exclusive" status as *the* chicago poetry calendar.

Oh god. Oh no. How will you ever carry on? Your identity as a poetry calendar is truly threatened! Who will you become? A real person might be an option to consider....

chicagopoetry said...

And now I will delete the offending post at chicagopoetry.org. I do this for Jenny Boully, KateDurbin, Becca Klaver, and Daniela Olszewska, who showed great maturity in letting me post my opinions uncensored. They could have deleted my posts or not allowed me to post, but they didn't. Even though they disagree with me, they allowed me my basic freedom of speech. That showed maturity. So in return, I will also act mature.

And, yes, I apologize to Kristy Bowen and to all women. Peace out.

-sed said...

you're apologizing to Kristy on Daniela's blog ... will you apologize to Kristy on your web page & in your mailings?

HK said...

wow. well that was entertaining. D, i get why you're pissed but allow me to say kristy seems like a badass sister to me (dancing girl is pretty motherfucking badass leastways) and badass sisters just let all that mess slide right offa 'em. cuz assholes are gonna keep on being assholes, we just gotta keep on and take care of our own, right? fuck em. people will go around tellin you you're too fat or you drink too much or you should give up poetry and go to accountant school but you gotta say "fuck you" and do what works for ya. but i gotta say too, jesus, can we really have too many sites that help people find shit that's going down in the city? is this a contest? is this the fuckin United Divisionary CastIron AntiHuman Authoratative PenisClub Academy Poetry Corporation Division Department X (TM) or what? isnt art suppose to be fuckin fun?

Bloody Ice Cream said...

H - You're so right. Like, how can there ever be too many people promoting poetry?

becca said...

"United Divisionary CastIron AntiHuman Authoratative PenisClub Academy Poetry Corporation Division Department X (TM)"

not those guys again! they're always sending me spam!

chicagopoetry said...

It's not about too many people promoting poetry, and you know it. As all these posts suggest, you are just sticking up for Bowen because she is your "badass sister" no matter what she does, no matter how in the wrong she is. You act like making a fat joke is the end of the world while you shut your eyes to Bowen's constant mocking of the mentally disabled. I am all for promoting poetry, and would gladly even link to Bowen's site, but not while it is using my domain name. I know it baffles you that someone can claim rights to the domain name "chicagopoetry" but I've had that name for ten years already. "Poetry Magazine" has had the name "Poetry Magazine" for 95 years. Do you really think that "Poetry Magazine" doesn't have the right to that name just because it also suggests a concept beyond itself? YOu don't own the concept of "Switchback" but if someone in Chicago, not just somneone, someone who obvioulsy doesn't like you, set up a Switchback (insert addition to name) and started publishing and claiming they were Switchback, are you seriously trying to say that wouldn't upset you and you wouldn't attempt to put an end to it? Grow up guys. You are acting like children.

amyking said...

"constant mocking of the mentally disabled" -- do you even hear your insane self?

With every word you write, you prove who is the child here. In fact, my statement does a disservice to children, who would certainly know better than to keep repeating lies in the hopes that the repetition will somehow make them come true. They would finally give in to the shame of such nonsense and back off. You may as well be screaming, "Kristy bad bad bad BAD!" for all the good your claims are doing you.

HK said...

not that i give a fuck enough about this to keep it going, but i'm bored so just to clarify: first off, i speak for myself, man, nobody else. personally, it doesn't baffle me that someone would claim the rights to chicago poetry. shit, ya gotta pay royalties on happy birthday. i just think it's lame. but then, i'm pretty much an anarchist. and i dont kno kristy very well (and i could give a fuck less about what you did or she did or your mama did or the cat did), i was just tellin my buddy D here that personally i just think she seems like the type who can handle a stupid insult about something she shouldn't feel bad about and let it roll off her. i'm not PC and i personally don't think fat jokes are the end of the world, i just think they're stupid and easy. but hey, say whatever the fuck you want about people, man, just don't be suprised when their friends come knockin at your door armed ot the teeth wavin torches and scythes, cuz that's what the fuck friends are for, and ain't life grand? peace. -HK

chicagopoetry said...

Okay, Amy King just called me insane, even after I've made it quite clear how offended I am by that.

So, don't be surprised when you google Wicked Alice and I popped up fourth listing. Because, shit, we all should just steal each other's domain names and say fuck it, right?

Matt said...

CJ, the moral high ground you're claiming is made of sand. Please just shut the fuck up already. This is getting old.

chicagopoetry said...

Matt, why are you talking to me? I've never met you and this is none of your business. I've posted quite a few links to the dozen or so hate pages you guys have put up about me. Please just google "Kristy Bowen's Wicked Alice" and click on the first link. I've already been contacted through it by someone looking for information about Bowen and I can guarantee you I did not give her a good reference.

kristy bowen said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
chicagopoetry said...

Why are we even continuing this?

I've offered to sit down and talk about it. I've offered to come to some understanding. I've offered to end all the madness. I've offered and offered.

Bowen has offered us her sarcasm. Bowen says she WILL NOT BACK DOWN. Booga booga. Bowen CONTINUES even to this day to call me "crazy" and a "lunatic" and "insane" and today she called me a "psycho" several times before her little sis deleted all the comments.

Okay, please, come and meet me.

On July 31st I will be hosted a show during the Printers Ball from 5 to 6 PM, 8th floor "reading stage", featuring ten of Chicago's top female poets. If anyone concerned would like to see a completely sane person hosting ten completely sane poets who would love to meet you and network with you, please, by all means, you are invited.

Bloody Ice Cream said...

I'm still in this because of the rape and Nazi references you posted on two of your four fake Kristy pages.

chicagopoetry said...

Hey, if the shoe fits. Bowen's continuous mocking of the mentally ill is an isult to rape victims and does sound like the attitude of a nazi.

Bloody Ice Cream said...

Your logic astounds me.

chicagopoetry said...

Daniela, I keep thinking there is an intelligent person inside of you that I can somehow break through to. Just put your friendship with Kristy Bowen aside for a few minutes. Imagine you don't even know her, just for a few minutes. Try to to see the logic. Don't you think that's how it started in Nazi Germany? With people insulting the mentally handicapped and calling them "crazy" and then finally, because the politics were right, sending them to the gas chambers because an atmosphere where it was okay to call people "crazy" existed? Let's flip the coin here for a second. What if I was the one calling Bowen "crazy" and a "lunatic" and a "psycho" in order to avoid rationally answering any of her inquiries. Bowen does not know me or what I've been through in my lifetime yet she thinks its okay to judge my state of mind and to mock it over and over, for a year and a half now she's been doing this. Is it because I'm a middle aged man? Is that the reason it is okay. What if I was the person who got raped and the reason I sometimes go ballistic is because I'm suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. Is it okay for Bowen to constantly call that person "crazy" as well, and not only that, try to justify her own unethical actions by saying don't listen to her, she's a raving lunatic? It was wrong for me to bring Bowen's weight into it. I apologize again for that. But it is also wrong for Bowen to bring my alleged state of mind into it. She has NOT apologized for that, and has even upped her rhetoric to new heights of insensitivity. Don't believe all that cyberbully crap. It is just something a handful of poets in Chicago use to stereotype me so that you will "ignore" me and thus never find out the other side of the story.

Bloody Ice Cream said...

I don't believe that you're a cyber bully because Kristy and "a handful of poets in Chicago" told me that you're a cyber bully. I believe that you're a cyber bully because I've witnessed you take the actions of a cyber bully. Also, Kristy apologized for calling you crazy. On her blog. A week and a half ago.

-sed said...

C.J.,

Poetry exists with or without you.

Chicago exists with or without you.

You exist, it would seem (to those of us who know you, as well as to those who may have only happened upon your web page(s)), to call names and throw around slurs whenever anyone other than you does anything notable related to Chicago a/o poetry.

This is hardly new. This is as tired now as it was several years ago when you'd launch whatever tirade against whichever local schlep had unknowingly or imaginarily stepped on your toes. For this reason, most of us just keep quiet when you run your mouth/pen/keypad. This time, you have hit a new low.

Kristy Bowen is my friend. In the grand scheme of this pathetic series of your latest cockamamie rants, I suppose that's not so important.

What is important, the way I see it, is her body of work. Ms. Bowen is probably the best worker in words, lines, stanzas, riffs, tongues, etc. living in Chicago today (I could easily say the U.S. or North America or the English-speaking world, but that may be getting ahead of myself).

While you have been mass-producing nonsensical e-tirades/character assassinations against folks who have done you no real damage whatsoever, Kristy has put tireless effort into productive things like running a small press, getting other people's good work into print, really *contributing* to a sense of community here. And, oh, yeah, she's also turned out a slew of really amazing work of her own, the likes of which we'll probably see taught in the better writing programs not long from now, if some haven't picked up on it already.

And, really, so what if, in passing -- in some private conversation -- she may or may not have made some aside concerning her take on your reactionary behavior toward her and her friends? If she actually did verbalize said aside, I mean, you're kinda still throwing stones from a glass house, aren't you? And, really, taking her to the mat over that alleged statement by spinning it into an insult on an entire set of folks with a common ailment? I mean, *that,* sir, is a logical stretch of witch-hunt proportions . . .

And what's really sad about all of us wasting our time/type/energies on your delusions and the bellicose manner in which you deal with them is Bloody Ice Cream is a pretty fantastic blog. There's always something interesting, funny, new, cetera ... I'm sure most of us tangled up in this thread would much rather keep up with Daniela's daily postings as opposed to this same, tired tripe you've been hurling for years.

Kristy deserves your sincere and unconditional apology. So do a lot of other folks, but why not start with her?

Bloody Ice Cream said...
This post has been removed by the author.
amyking said...

As I noted on my own blog - re: CJ Laity, “What cracker is this same that deafs our ears / With this abundance of superfluous breath?” – Shakespeare

He just keeps exponentially blogging/blasting/bellowing/digging his hole ever-deeper. By now, it's quicksand; hence the maddening flailing and increased intensity of his antics and proclaimed "rationales" for his behavior.

chicagopoetry said...

Blah blah blah, if having an hour on the stage at Printers Ball is being in a hole I'll stay in my hole and let you chickens squack. I'm not posting here any more because you've started to censor me. If you want to talk, go to thebirdmuseum.blogspot.com

Bloody Ice Cream said...

Oh but I was so enjoying the open, respectful, productive debate your comments engendered...

chicagopoetry said...

wow, this is your answer, huh?

http://cjlaity.wordpress.com/

If you bother looking at this hard enough you can see someone calling me a "faggot" and threatening to "kill" me.

Is this really your idea of the new improved Chicago Poetry?

Bloody Ice Cream said...

I didn't make the site. Or encourage anyone else to make it. It seems like it's been taken down; at any rate, I can't access it.

If someone is going around intentionally slandering your name and encouraging violence against you, I recommend doing what Kristy does and take pictures of the webpages so you have something to back up a lawsuit and/or restraining order.

chicagopoetry said...

No, I know you didn't make it, because I know you are an inelligent person who just got tangled in something that really doesn't have anything to do with you. But you and your friends are INSPIRING this type of thing. Look, why don't we ALL take down our stupid hate crap before we inspire some real psycho out there to do something stupid. I am willing to talk about it.

Bloody Ice Cream said...

I suspect that the person/s who made that page were responding to the ten plus pages you made that accused Kristy (and, by extension, me) of being a Nazi who hates children and rape victims.

I highly doubt that my request that you not denigrate Kristy's appearance caused someone to make that page. As in, you're the author of your own shit. The inspiration for the vitriol directed at you isn't me; it's you. People aren't disapproving of your actions because I told them to be; people are disapproving of your actions because they find your actions objectionable.